diff --git a/src/lib/direct.c b/src/lib/direct.c
index cb260d601..f6d59615d 100644
--- a/src/lib/direct.c
+++ b/src/lib/direct.c
@@ -49,70 +49,6 @@ int ncdirect_putstr(ncdirect* nc, uint64_t channels, const char* utf8){
   return fprintf(nc->ttyfp, "%s", utf8);
 }
 
-static int
-cursor_yx_get(int ttyfd, const char* u7, int* y, int* x){
-  if(tty_emit(u7, ttyfd)){
-    return -1;
-  }
-  bool done = false;
-  enum { // what we expect now
-    CURSOR_ESC, // 27 (0x1b)
-    CURSOR_LSQUARE,
-    CURSOR_ROW, // delimited by a semicolon
-    CURSOR_COLUMN,
-    CURSOR_R,
-  } state = CURSOR_ESC;
-  int row = 0, column = 0;
-  char in;
-  while(read(ttyfd, &in, 1) == 1){
-    bool valid = false;
-    switch(state){
-      case CURSOR_ESC: valid = (in == NCKEY_ESC); state = CURSOR_LSQUARE; break;
-      case CURSOR_LSQUARE: valid = (in == '['); state = CURSOR_ROW; break;
-      case CURSOR_ROW:
-        if(isdigit(in)){
-          row *= 10;
-          row += in - '0';
-          valid = true;
-        }else if(in == ';'){
-          state = CURSOR_COLUMN;
-          valid = true;
-        }
-        break;
-      case CURSOR_COLUMN:
-        if(isdigit(in)){
-          column *= 10;
-          column += in - '0';
-          valid = true;
-        }else if(in == 'R'){
-          state = CURSOR_R;
-          valid = true;
-        }
-        break;
-      case CURSOR_R: default: // logical error, whoops
-        break;
-    }
-    if(!valid){
-      fprintf(stderr, "Unexpected result from terminal: %d\n", in);
-      break;
-    }
-    if(state == CURSOR_R){
-      done = true;
-      break;
-    }
-  }
-  if(!done){
-    return -1;
-  }
-  if(y){
-    *y = row;
-  }
-  if(x){
-    *x = column;
-  }
-  return 0;
-}
-
 int ncdirect_cursor_up(ncdirect* nc, int num){
   if(num < 0){
     return -1;
@@ -343,22 +279,22 @@ detect_cursor_inversion(ncdirect* n, const char* u7, int rows, int cols, int* y,
     // we only changed one, supposedly the number of rows. if we were on the
     // top row before, the reply is inverted.
     if(*y == 0){
-      n->inverted_cursor = true;
+      n->tcache.inverted_cursor = true;
     }
   }else if(*y == newy){
     // we only changed one, supposedly the number of columns. if we were on the
     // rightmost column before, the reply is inverted.
     if(*x == cols){
-      n->inverted_cursor = true;
+      n->tcache.inverted_cursor = true;
     }
   }else{
     // the row ought have decreased, and the column ought have increased. if it
     // went the other way, the reply is inverted.
     if(newy > *y && newx < *x){
-      n->inverted_cursor = true;
+      n->tcache.inverted_cursor = true;
     }
   }
-  n->detected_cursor_inversion = true;
+  n->tcache.detected_cursor_inversion = true;
   return 0;
 }
 
@@ -412,13 +348,13 @@ int ncdirect_cursor_yx(ncdirect* n, int* y, int* x){
   if(!x){
     x = &xval;
   }
-  if(!n->detected_cursor_inversion){
+  if(!n->tcache.detected_cursor_inversion){
     ret = detect_cursor_inversion_wrapper(n, u7, y, x);
   }else{
     ret = cursor_yx_get(n->ctermfd, u7, y, x);
   }
   if(ret == 0){
-    if(n->inverted_cursor){
+    if(n->tcache.inverted_cursor){
       int tmp = *y;
       *y = *x;
       *x = tmp;
diff --git a/src/lib/internal.h b/src/lib/internal.h
index 7dfd25f8a..835bc71ec 100644
--- a/src/lib/internal.h
+++ b/src/lib/internal.h
@@ -406,10 +406,6 @@ typedef struct ncdirect {
   tinfo tcache;              // terminfo cache
   uint64_t channels;         // current channels
   uint16_t stylemask;        // current styles
-  // some terminals (e.g. kmscon) return cursor coordinates inverted from the
-  // typical order. we detect it the first time ncdirect_cursor_yx() is called.
-  bool detected_cursor_inversion; // have we performed inversion testing?
-  bool inverted_cursor;      // does the terminal return inverted coordinates?
   bool initialized_readline; // have we initialized Readline?
   uint64_t flags;            // copied in ncdirect_init() from param
 } ncdirect;
diff --git a/src/lib/notcurses.c b/src/lib/notcurses.c
index 1dff03f50..893ab803f 100644
--- a/src/lib/notcurses.c
+++ b/src/lib/notcurses.c
@@ -887,11 +887,9 @@ init_banner_warnings(const notcurses* nc, FILE* out){
 // returns the number of lines printed.
 static int
 init_banner(const notcurses* nc){
-  int liness = 0;
   if(!nc->suppress_banner){
     char prefixbuf[BPREFIXSTRLEN + 1];
     term_fg_palindex(nc, stdout, 50 % nc->tcache.caps.colors);
-    ++liness;
     fprintf(nc->ttyfp, "notcurses %s on %s %s\n", notcurses_version(),
             nc->tcache.termname ? nc->tcache.termname : "?",
             nc->tcache.termversion ? nc->tcache.termversion : "");
@@ -911,7 +909,6 @@ init_banner(const notcurses* nc){
               sizeof(struct crender), nc->tcache.caps.colors);
     }
     const char* setaf;
-    liness += 3;
     if(nc->tcache.caps.rgb && (setaf = get_escape(&nc->tcache, ESCAPE_SETAF))){
       ncfputc('+', nc->ttyfp);
       term_fg_rgb8(&nc->tcache, stdout, 0xe0, 0x60, 0x60);
@@ -938,17 +935,14 @@ init_banner(const notcurses* nc){
 #endif
             , curses_version());
     ncvisual_printbanner(nc);
-    ++liness;
-    // don't go sending these to stderr; it would fuck up our line count, for
-    // one, and we don't know if we can meaningfully send escapes there.
-    liness += init_banner_warnings(nc, nc->ttyfp);
+    init_banner_warnings(nc, nc->ttyfp);
     const char* esc;
     if( (esc = get_escape(&nc->tcache, ESCAPE_SGR0)) ||
         (esc = get_escape(&nc->tcache, ESCAPE_OP))){
       term_emit(esc, nc->ttyfp, false);
     }
   }
-  return liness;
+  return 0;
 }
 
 // it's critical that we're using UTF-8 encoding if at all possible. since the
@@ -1160,15 +1154,15 @@ notcurses* notcurses_core_init(const notcurses_options* opts, FILE* outfp){
     goto err;
   }
   ret->rstate.x = ret->rstate.y = -1;
-  int bannerlines = init_banner(ret);
+  init_banner(ret);
   if(ncflush(ret->ttyfp)){
     free_plane(ret->stdplane);
     goto err;
   }
   if(cursor_y >= 0 && cursor_x >= 0){
-    cursor_y += bannerlines;
-    if(cursor_y >= ncplane_dim_y(ret->stdplane)){
-      cursor_y = ncplane_dim_y(ret->stdplane) - 1;
+    if(!ret->suppress_banner && locate_cursor_early(ret, &cursor_y, &cursor_x)){
+      free_plane(ret->stdplane);
+      goto err;
     }
     ncplane_cursor_move_yx(ret->stdplane, cursor_y, cursor_x);
   }
diff --git a/src/lib/render.c b/src/lib/render.c
index 4ed8b535f..5d303d947 100644
--- a/src/lib/render.c
+++ b/src/lib/render.c
@@ -881,7 +881,7 @@ static int
 rasterize_scrolls(ncpile* p, FILE* out){
 //fprintf(stderr, "%d tardies to work off, by far the most in the class\n", p->scrolls);
   while(p->scrolls){
-    if(fprintf(out, "\n") < 0){
+    if(fprintf(out, "\v") < 0){
       return -1;
     }
     --p->scrolls;
diff --git a/src/lib/termdesc.c b/src/lib/termdesc.c
index be43bc19c..aaca78285 100644
--- a/src/lib/termdesc.c
+++ b/src/lib/termdesc.c
@@ -726,3 +726,86 @@ char* termdesc_longterm(const tinfo* ti){
   }
   return ret;
 }
+
+int cursor_yx_get(int ttyfd, const char* u7, int* y, int* x){
+  if(tty_emit(u7, ttyfd)){
+    return -1;
+  }
+  bool done = false;
+  enum { // what we expect now
+    CURSOR_ESC, // 27 (0x1b)
+    CURSOR_LSQUARE,
+    CURSOR_ROW, // delimited by a semicolon
+    CURSOR_COLUMN,
+    CURSOR_R,
+  } state = CURSOR_ESC;
+  int row = 0, column = 0;
+  int r;
+  char in;
+  do{
+    while((r = read(ttyfd, &in, 1)) == 1){
+      bool valid = false;
+      switch(state){
+        case CURSOR_ESC: valid = (in == NCKEY_ESC); state = CURSOR_LSQUARE; break;
+        case CURSOR_LSQUARE: valid = (in == '['); state = CURSOR_ROW; break;
+        case CURSOR_ROW:
+          if(isdigit(in)){
+            row *= 10;
+            row += in - '0';
+            valid = true;
+          }else if(in == ';'){
+            state = CURSOR_COLUMN;
+            valid = true;
+          }
+          break;
+        case CURSOR_COLUMN:
+          if(isdigit(in)){
+            column *= 10;
+            column += in - '0';
+            valid = true;
+          }else if(in == 'R'){
+            state = CURSOR_R;
+            valid = true;
+          }
+          break;
+        case CURSOR_R: default: // logical error, whoops
+          break;
+      }
+      if(!valid){
+        fprintf(stderr, "Unexpected result from terminal: %d\n", in);
+        break;
+      }
+      if(state == CURSOR_R){
+        done = true;
+        break;
+      }
+    }
+  }while(!done && (r == 1 || (errno == EINTR || errno == EAGAIN || errno == EBUSY)));
+  if(!done){
+    return -1;
+  }
+  if(y){
+    *y = row;
+  }
+  if(x){
+    *x = column;
+  }
+  return 0;
+}
+
+int locate_cursor_early(struct notcurses* nc, int* cursor_y, int* cursor_x){
+  const char* u7 = get_escape(&nc->tcache, ESCAPE_DSRCPR);
+  // FIXME ought check for cursor inversion!
+  int ret = cursor_yx_get(nc->ttyfd, u7, cursor_y, cursor_x);
+  if(ret == 0){
+    if(nc->tcache.inverted_cursor){
+      int tmp = *cursor_y;
+      *cursor_y = *cursor_x;
+      *cursor_x = tmp;
+    }
+    // we use 0-based coordinates, but known terminals use 1-based coordinates
+    --*cursor_y;
+    --*cursor_x;
+  }
+  return ret;
+}
diff --git a/src/lib/termdesc.h b/src/lib/termdesc.h
index c364f9b40..6e9c7af44 100644
--- a/src/lib/termdesc.h
+++ b/src/lib/termdesc.h
@@ -161,6 +161,11 @@ typedef struct tinfo {
   int default_cols; // COLUMNS environment var / cols terminfo / 80
 
   int linux_fb_fd;  // linux framebuffer device fd
+
+  // some terminals (e.g. kmscon) return cursor coordinates inverted from the
+  // typical order. we detect it the first time ncdirect_cursor_yx() is called.
+  bool detected_cursor_inversion; // have we performed inversion testing?
+  bool inverted_cursor;      // does the terminal return inverted coordinates?
 } tinfo;
 
 // retrieve the terminfo(5)-style escape 'e' from tdesc (NULL if undefined).
@@ -194,6 +199,12 @@ void free_terminfo_cache(tinfo* ti);
 // return a heap-allocated copy of termname + termversion
 char* termdesc_longterm(const tinfo* ti);
 
+// get the cursor location early (after interrogate_terminfo(), but before
+// handing control back to the user). blocking call. FIXME this should go away
+// once we have proper input handling that separates out control sequences.
+int locate_cursor_early(struct notcurses* nc, int* cursor_y, int* cursor_x);
+int cursor_yx_get(int ttyfd, const char* u7, int* y, int* x);
+
 #ifdef __cplusplus
 }
 #endif